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Vanilla 1.1.2 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

    • CommentAuthordjabbour
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2010
     permalink
    Hi,

    Well I'm new here, but in reviewing the forums and wiki and after installing the official branch, I am curious what's going on with the forks of this project. Ari, you indicated that you unsubscribed from the "dev" mailing list and that Erland has no intension of merging your code base into the official branch. That said, the official branch has not been touched very substantially in a long time (last commit was May 2009).

    I just deployed ClockingIT and plan on using it at my firm, but I'm concerned with this split-head situation of development. I don't know what version I should be deploying, or working on should I decide to submit a code patch. Erland, are you around and interested in more community involvement in the development process?

    If Erland is MIA or does not want to provide for more community-driven development, I say we officially fork the project, give it a new name, setup a new wiki, mailing list, etc.- so any interested developers can collaborate. I think forming a collaborative group of folks to work on the project is important- so one individual can't hijack or stop the development of the project.

    Who would be game to assist in the development? It appears that Ari is still working on his version. I have some questions about Ari's direction (I think eliminating the juggernaut server would really limit the software and hit performance fairly substantially. And, it appears Ari is just making changes unique to him; so maybe an intermediate fork would be best). This way we can have an "official" branch of development, where any community-agreed features can live, including Ari's changes. And any changes Ari would like to make that are specific to his development could stay in his branch. But we can work through technical decisions like that. I designed and deployed a major Rails application at a financial services company in NYC (I managed about 12 developers)... so I'm happy to assist with some of the project management and architectural stuff, and some of the development. I think we just need to see what interest exists, how many developers there are, and decide how to structure things.

    What does everyone think?

    Daniel
    • CommentAuthorari
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2010
     permalink
    I can't answer for Erlend, but I'll answer for me:

    1. I estimate that I've spent AUD $12,000 in cash and about 600 hours of my time on ClockingIT since I started on the project in December 2008. With some tiny exceptions, that has all been released as open source.

    2. If I had made just just specific to my own needs, I probably could have cut my development costs and effort to date to 30% of what I have invested. I have always wanted to keep the project open so that other developers might be attracted to it and contribute to its future. From a purely financial point of view the goal was that maintaining an open source project is cheaper if others contribute. From a personal point of view I believe in open source and am a member of the Apache Foundation where I work on a project there.

    3. To date I've had $25 in donations (thank you!) and a tiny tiny number of code contributions. In hindsight (2) wasn't a great business decision. It still might pay off if we can get others to contribute.

    4. I'd be fairly upset is someone forked my code without prior conversation. Splitting up the community further is not a good idea. I haven't decided about the juggernaut direction and am only talking about it now. There are (almost) no features I've removed at this time. Public discussion of all these things is a good idea.

    5. I've made some moves toward a new name and brand, but basically I've been waiting for Erlend's final decision about his direction. At some point he might say: go and do your own thing, stop confusing my userbase. Or let's see how we can get your fork back into my deployment. Or something else all together. I've already got a new mailing list and have some early work done on a new site plus wiki. But I'm waiting to see what is going to happen. Besides, I'm so busy these days...

    6. Daniel, if you have Rails experience, then we can well do with your skills and help. Project management is not an issue here: what needs to be done is very clear. We just need people to help do it. I left the other mailing list because I got a bit sick of all the promises of help without any follow through: lots of people asking for stuff but no real help even to document UI goals, do testing or anything else. Please join the new mailing list if you want to discuss current development efforts: http://groups.google.com/group/jobsworth

    Lastly I want to make very clear that I have no animosity toward Erlend, and in fact I'm very thankful to him for all his work. He was generous enough to not only build ClockingIT, but to release it to the world and also to host lots of people for free. That's what drew me to the project in the first place. How he donates his time to his public works is entirely his own business and he has been very generous. I would wish I had more communication from him over the year, and I tried hard to only implement things he would be able to adopt for the first 6 months. But then came a time when waiting for collaboration on design decisions was holding up my business, so I had to progress in a slightly tangental way.

    I've been contemplating a way to monetize the project so that I can afford to spend time and money on it into the future, but I don't want that to distract from my primary business (which is software development in the education arena), so I've done little on that for the moment.


    Finally, I think that one of the problems here is that most the people drawn to this site and this forum are non-technical and non-programmers. One of my goals of setting up the github project and a new mailing list has been to work on attracting a different kind of person: those who can contribute directly. I certainly need to do more to promote that.

    My current plan is to perform another month or two of work: cleaning up the calendar, getting rid of prototype, making the html validate and a bit more. Then look at UI cosmetic improvements so that we can take screen shots and create a web site to promote the product. I'm a long way down the track of building a demo site (lots done like postgresql and file writing).

    Cheers
    Ari Maniatis
    • CommentAuthordjabbour
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2010 edited
     permalink

    3. To date I've had $25 in donations (thank you!) and a tiny tiny number of code contributions. In hindsight (2) wasn't a great business decision. It still might pay off if we can get others to contribute.

    I have some ideas regarding monetization. Could we perhaps chat about this by e-mail or phone? I'd like to keep it a little private until I vet the idea properly, and considering you have such a stake in the code-base, I'd love to share my ideas with you.


    4. I'd be fairly upset is someone forked my code without prior conversation. Splitting up the community further is not a good idea. I haven't decided about the juggernaut direction and am only talking about it now. There are (almost) no features I've removed at this time. Public discussion of all these things is a good idea.

    Agreed, splitting the community further would be a really bad idea. That's why I wanted to chat with you. But I think that it's not too crazy to expect features specific to you only might be in one branch of the code, while a public "community" branch would contain most of your other updates. And discussion will be key to resolving which are which. I'm just saying, community-driven code!


    5. I've made some moves toward a new name and brand, but basically I've been waiting for Erlend's final decision about his direction. At some point he might say: go and do your own thing, stop confusing my userbase. Or let's see how we can get your fork back into my deployment. Or something else all together. I've already got a new mailing list and have some early work done on a new site plus wiki. But I'm waiting to see what is going to happen. Besides, I'm so busy these days...

    Based on his lack of involvement from what I've seen on the mailing lists, and this forum, and the way the project is structured... I doubt he'll be willing to build a community-driven edition out of all this, but let's see what he says. I don't want to create any bad feelings around the community, but I think it's important that going forward, we don't bottle-neck the direction of the project by putting it solely in one persons hands. Perhaps with your stake in development, this strikes you as a little scary. You obviously know from other OSS projects that having a foundation in control is a good idea (like Apache).

    That said, I wouldn't think of a community-driven edition as "out of your control"- but rather it should (hopefully) bring more talented people working on the project. And of course any features that you want that perhaps the community doesn't, there's no reason you couldn't maintain a small branch with such features. Keeping that up-to-date doesn't need to be a big effort, especially with git and some good project planning.


    6. Daniel, if you have Rails experience, then we can well do with your skills and help. Project management is not an issue here: what needs to be done is very clear. We just need people to help do it. I left the other mailing list because I got a bit sick of all the promises of help without any follow through: lots of people asking for stuff but no real help even to document UI goals, do testing or anything else. Please join the new mailing list if you want to discuss current development efforts: http://groups.google.com/group/jobsworth

    As I said, I have a pretty substantial Rail application under my belt. I intend on helping on this project, as it fits very nicely in to a niche that I need filled. This comes back to the conversation I wanted to have with you privately. But basically, like you, I run a small development team and we would like to make this project a key part of our time-tracking infrastructure. I can commit some of my time (though I'm sure you can understand I too am quite busy). I've taken steps to ensure I'll have some resources available to spend time on this, however, as I was considering writing it from scratch. If things pick up, I might be able to put some of my staff on it as well here and there. I believe in commercial OSS contributions. If a software product isn't part of your core-business, but you need to write or modify one anyway, then there's no reason why you shouldn't collaborate with others in the commercial and non-commercial space to build the best product you can.

    I disagree a little on the PM comment. Every project needs organization, architecture, and management. I'd really like to centralize the project into something like Redmine or Trac, as it makes planning new features, bug requests, a wiki, and SCM all linked together beautifully, and reference-able from each. Someone needs to maintain that, come up with dependancies, organize features into releases, etc. Yes, the community would help with that effort, and a SCM management tool (like the ones mentioned) really help with this effort.

    ...(continued below)...
    • CommentAuthordjabbour
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2010
     permalink

    Lastly I want to make very clear that I have no animosity toward Erlend, and in fact I'm very thankful to him for all his work. He was generous enough to not only build ClockingIT, but to release it to the world and also to host lots of people for free. That's what drew me to the project in the first place. How he donates his time to his public works is entirely his own business and he has been very generous. I would wish I had more communication from him over the year, and I tried hard to only implement things he would be able to adopt for the first 6 months. But then came a time when waiting for collaboration on design decisions was holding up my business, so I had to progress in a slightly tangental way.

    Understood. I'm not suggesting anything mean or nefarious. Forks are part of the open source world. And as you identified, having one person in charge creates this bottle-neck that I'm trying to avoid if I'm going to contribute to a project. If Erland would like to made the development more community-driven, then we can work on merging your work with the main code-base, and creating a community-driven development cycle. If not, then he's welcome to using any of the code we produce in his own version, but we'll maintain another fork.


    I've been contemplating a way to monetize the project so that I can afford to spend time and money on it into the future, but I don't want that to distract from my primary business (which is software development in the education arena), so I've done little on that for the moment.

    I've got some great ideas here, Ari. Please e-mail me (daniel at drjweb dot com) and let me know if you'd be willing to have a quick phone-chat. If not, we can conduct our communication via email, but I just find talking a little faster sometimes. We can skype (for cost reasons), or I don't mind dialing you via my VOIP line; I'm sure the rates aren't that bad.


    Finally, I think that one of the problems here is that most the people drawn to this site and this forum are non-technical and non-programmers. One of my goals of setting up the github project and a new mailing list has been to work on attracting a different kind of person: those who can contribute directly. I certainly need to do more to promote that.

    Agreed, and I like github a lot. But the community is usually going to be full of users looking for support. As we grow, hopefully we can find some more technical users (but shy of coders) to help with the support requests from other users. I'd really like to move away from the whole forum-based approach. Not sure how familiar you are with them, but I find a tool like Trac makes this real easy. Information should exist on the wiki, issues should be reported to an issue tracker, and planning should go into milestones. Code commits can reference ticket numbers so we know what they're in reference to (in the log data), and tools like trac parse out the # symbol and provide links.


    My current plan is to perform another month or two of work: cleaning up the calendar, getting rid of prototype, making the html validate and a bit more. Then look at UI cosmetic improvements so that we can take screen shots and create a web site to promote the product. I'm a long way down the track of building a demo site (lots done like postgresql and file writing).

    Great. Let's talk when you get a chance, and maybe we can start to move this into a tool so we can better plan the project. Sometimes people are reluctant to using software like Trac because they think it will get in the way. But software development is all about communication (small aside, ever read Mythical Man Month? It's an amazing read as a software developer), and when teams are distributed, tools like Trac really make it possible to accomplish more in less time by eliminating redundant dat and centralizing information.

    Thanks for the quick response, and I look forward to your email.

    Kind regards,
    Daniel
    • CommentAuthorari
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2010
     permalink
    Not sure how familiar you are with them, but I find a tool like Trac makes this real easy.


    I already using ClockingIT to manage all tasks for ClockingIT. That isn't open to the world, but to date there has been no need for that. I anticipate that needing to change if there are more developers, but let's get more developers first. For the meantime, github offers a very simple but workable bug reporting system.

    Project management is important, but again only once we have more than just me. For now, others can get involved by:

    * contributing to the proposal feature documentation in the wiki on github
    * reporting bugs (here or on github)
    * picking up any of the tasks in the github tracker (there is one really easy password one for someone to start with)
    * forking the project on github and working on any number of the issues


    I'm all for expanding the developer base, but I want to see some code before I get too enthused. Talk is all good, but contributions will really excite me. There is no bottle neck other than the shortage of skilled developers working on the code.

    Daniel, since you are a developer, I'm sure integrating the tool into svn/git would be important to you. If so, perhaps you could take responsibility for researching how that might happen and coming up with a plan for implementation. I'm thinking it should be relatively simple: maybe two days work.

    Ari
    • CommentAuthorlancrey
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2010
     permalink
    Hi guys,
    Haven't been on the forums for a long time. My main contribution to CIT included a brush-up and rewriting of the French translation, and it has not been touched in a couple years. It's true that the community is not very active, actually community has a name : Ari. But the founder is still Erlend, and he's made such a great job that I was more than happy to publicize CIT on different msg boards and forum in the past.

    Now it's true that I haven't seen a new feature appear in many month, but that is maybe because CIT is really working well, as it is. I wonder what Erlend is up to ? Does he want to move things forward, or is he uninterested in the project ?

    Now my second question is to Ari : where can I see your fork in action ? I remember seeing a live demo long time ago, but it must have evolved significantly since then, and I really would not like to install it on my server without having a look at it first.

    As for monetizing the thing, you probably know that there are many PM software out there; some very good, some poor. As a journalist, I have written papers about this, and interviewed coders from different projects : let me tell you there are not many people who make what they expected...

    Best,
    G
    • CommentAuthorari
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2010
     permalink
    Hi there

    I think that Erlend's time is really taken up by other non-IT things: he interested, but unable to find the time to do any new work. In the meantime, we need to make our own plans and keep things moving.

    As for a demo, that's been a goal of mine for a while now. Hopefully I'll be in a position to have a demo site fully working within the month. There are some issues to solve before I can do that, but I'm working on it now (and in fact committed some early work in that direction only last night). I'll announce more here on this forum when I've got something to show.

    Charging is difficult. Here are some options I have:

    1. Close the source and sell the service. Really, no one else is working on the source anyway, so I derive no benefit from the work to keep it open source. Then I could more easily use libraries (such as GANTT chart plugins) which are not available to an open source project. On the downside I'm competing on equal footing with a thousand products and services out there.

    2. Keep the source open and sell the service (either an installation help service, or a fully managed solution). The problem here is that the amount I can charge is limited to a small amount that non-technical people will pay to have someone manage it for them. Anyone with an IT department will just do it themselves. Over about $400 per year and many people will say "I'll just hire an IT person to set it up for me."

    3. Charge for support. Since I already run an IT development company I know how fraught this can be if I don't scale the service well.

    4. Add some extra features to the software for the paid version, allowing me to charge more for it. This introduces extra development headache, but does give people an incentive to pay money. Look at Atlassian's Jira in the same product space: free for up to 10 users. This can be hard to manage with Ruby, since how do you lock down the product?

    5. Just keep doing what I'm doing and hope the developers come to help and be content with producing the best open source project management system there is. Perhaps try and raise bounties to accelerate the development of certain features (I tried that with task templates, but there are too many people who think open source developers are obligated by the laws of the universe to provide their time for free).


    I've thought about them all, but haven't made any decisions. In the meantime, I'll continue to spend some (limited) time on cleaning up the things I've wanted to do for a while, and get the demo working to encourage more interest.


    Cheers
    Ari
    • CommentAuthortoreyheinz
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010 edited
     permalink
    To start with I would like say I am big fan of Clocking IT, I have been using Erlend's hosted version for the last year and half or so. I would probably use it more if it had a better way to track billable time. A simple feature that I have wanted to develop for a long time.

    I would like to say that personally I would be willing to pay a monthly subscription for the system... actually I could do that anyways.

    I am a rails developer, and I have benefited from open source greatly and have started to give back to the community, by donating to the projects I use in client work. So here's my thought, I am willing to begin donating to this project on a monthly basis. Also I am willing to consider ways I can contribute to the code.

    Keep up the good work, and hopefully I wont add to this:
    sick of all the promises of help without any follow through: lots of people asking for stuff but no real help even to document UI goals, do testing or anything else.


    Enjoy,
    Torey
    • CommentAuthorari
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2010
     permalink
    Torey,

    Thanks very much for this. Can I say that right now, even more than money, if you have even tiny amounts of time to contribute to the project coding that would be incredibly valuable. There are very many small things which could be done. Naturally you'd need to be running your own installation which is step one, and join the jobsworth mailing list.

    BTW, there are already very many improvements to the time tracking (like custom properties). Perhaps what you wanted is already done?

    Regards
    Ari
    • CommentAuthordarkpollo
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2010
     permalink
    Hello,

    It is good to see movement here. I have been outside of the IT world like Erlend but i am trying to restore old projects and clockingit is one of them.
    I would like to help, (Ari has listened this before :P), but my code knowledge is very low, and the small things i made for helping (adding filters) was override easy by the modification by Ari“s branch.
    Anyway, i can help testing, translating into spanish (i made this already in the official clockingit) and anything that is not to make code, make tutorials, update the wiki, etc, i am sure there is a lot of things to do.
    I have my own installation (need to transfer the data from Erlend already) and i am going to join the jobsworth mailist as soon as i can.


    Regards
    Darkpollo - Angel
    • CommentAuthoratsakala
    • CommentTimeFeb 15th 2010
     permalink
    Looking for someone to install "ari's branch clockingIT" on our server. Willing to pay (or donate). Referrals?
    • CommentAuthorari
    • CommentTimeFeb 15th 2010
     permalink
    Are you looking for a managed solution where OS/db/clockingIT experts maintain and upgrade the software over time? Or a once off task to set it up and that's it?

    Ari
    • CommentAuthoratsakala
    • CommentTimeFeb 15th 2010
     permalink
    Good question. I was looking for a one time install but, I was not aware there were experts willing to maintain and upgrade. Choice is good. Can you contact me via email: gt@attorneysync.com to discuss my options? thanks. gyi tsakalakis